Wednesday, October 21, 2020

How saving a few bucks now can potentially backfire later…

Nb. I was
not personally involved with the production of Good Joe Bell in any capacity beyond an audition for a small role set aside for regional day-players like myself—I did not get the part but I’m not one to hold any grudges. My knowledge of the production and its management is based mostly on publicly available information and through conversations that I’ve had with Utah-based contractors who were either hired for the film or had direct contact with others that were. My intent in writing this essay is not to question the actions or intentions of the producers because it is my sincere belief that the issues that I discuss can be most likely attributed to middle-management positions that may or may not be local hires. All that being said, I wish to draw attention not to any individual person making such decisions but to the impact that they have, not only on the production itself but on the community in which it was operating.—Joe Puente

Anytime that a film production makes its presence known in any community, it can be very exciting for the locals. Who doesn’t get a thrill when they see a famous face in person for the first time? Even celebrities get giddy when they meet other more famous celebrities. Community business owners can also get excited by the prospect of a movie shooting in their town, especially if they have a product or service that the production could use. In short, making a movie costs money and that money gets spent wherever that movie gets made. It’s for this reason that film commissions exist—usually operating under the auspices of government economic development agencies—to promote their communities as destinations for producers to make their films. In addition to highlighting available filming locations, local industry services, and talent, governments also allocate resources in the form of tax incentives and rebates to attract film and television productions to their states.


It’s not uncommon for state and/or municipal governments to offer tax breaks to established corporate brands as an incentive to create brick-and-mortar operations in their communities. The thinking behind these efforts is that the short term cost in waived corporate or property taxes would be offset by income and sales tax revenue resulting from all the new jobs and economic activity that the incentivized company will bring to the community. Of course—if not properly considered—such incentives could potentially be too generous, turning such incentives into wage subsidies.


(CC BY-SA 3.0)
Caroline Bonarde Ucci
Film incentives don’t work like that. Instead of waiving taxes or fees to attract productions, they are simply offered a rebate that is tied directly to the amount of money that the production spends within that community. One such production was the film “Good Joe Bell,” starring Mark Wahlberg, which was filmed in Utah in 2019.


Even with a recognizable name like Wahlberg attached to the project, “Good Joe Bell” was “independently” produced without the resources of a major studio so it was considered a “low-budget” film—at least, compared to other major releases. It’s not uncommon for below-the-line management types to allow the “low-budget” nature of a project to induce a scarcity mindset which is then used to justify lowballing venues and contractors. It’s one thing when you’re trying to get a reasonable rate while you’re still in pre-production, but once the cameras start to roll, the budget is essentially locked and the time to haggle has lapsed. In the mind of a Line Producer or Unit Production Manager, dealing with day-to-day operations, they might still jump at the chance to get something for “free,” thinking that they’re “saving money” for the production. While it may be technically true that something of value may be acquired or used for a time that they—e.g. the production—did not have to pay for, they forget that it’s most likely going to be listed as a loss in revenue on someone’s balance sheet.


Good Joe Bell” was no exception to this phenomenon. In the spring of 2019, the production paid a Utah high school for the use of its approximately 2,200 seat football stadium. However much that rental fee was, it did not include the cost to fill those seats with cheering sports fans. The going day-rate for a background actor in Utah has remained static for several years at $101.50. That breaks down to the federal minimum wage (since 2009) for the first eight hours plus overtime for the final four hours of a typical 12-hour production day. The cost to fill that stadium for one day of shooting would be around $223,000.


Assuming that the scene in question was always part of the script, it had already been broken down, the number of extras needed and the cost for hiring them calculated and factored into the budget, which was then approved prior to the start of production. Despite this hardly atypical scenario of accounting and resource management most likely having been addressed, a decision was made—by whom, specifically, this author does not know—to persuade people to sit in the stadium without being paid.


Casting background talent for a film is not an alien concept to experienced filmmakers. Any producer that’s able to get the signature of an established, recognized actor onto a non-binding letter-of-intent and transform that into enough funding to make a “low-budget” feature, isn’t going to be hobbled by the prospect of casting extras. It’s just a given that an Extras Casting Director will need to be hired at some point.


About four weeks prior to the stadium shoot, a post from one of the high school’s official social media accounts, excitedly invited members of the community “to participate” in filming a scene for a movie “starring Mark Wahlberg” at their stadium in which the “young men of our football team will play a role…” In an effort to entice them to fill the grandstands, “participants” were offered a chance to win a raffle and go home with a new TV, gaming system, or tablet, generously provided by “the film company.” According to local industry gossip, this tactic to “save money” on extras for a single day of production did not work as well as had been hoped. It also created problems as far as their efforts to “re-create the energy and excitement of” a high school football game. I’m curious to see how that particular scene is framed in the completed film.

This all begs the question, why try to get “free” extras if the production knew that extras would be needed and factored that knowledge into their budget?


As I stated above, it’s the scarcity mindset embraced by below-the-line management types. Filmmaking is a job, like any other, and people with any modicum of responsibility want to get noticed, which—in the minds of some—is most easily translated into “saving the production money.”


In the world of “independent film,” there is no end to stories of would-be auteurs like Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith, “saving money” by shooting their features on 16mm instead of 35mm film, using real locations after hours instead of building sets, having actors apply their own makeup, calling in favors, getting friends to “donate” their time for the sake of a “passion project,” etc. Of course, those stories are famous because they’re flukes. The subsequent success for such filmmakers wasn’t the result of breaking rules, it was being lucky enough to get away with it while telling stories that resonated with their audiences.


When a production has budgeted a specific amount of money for something that is integral to telling the story, not spending it does the production no favors. In the case of “Good Joe Bell,” this attempt to “save money” by not spending it on background talent worked against the production in two ways. The aforementioned rumored difficulties in realistically depicting a sporting event as well as a reduction in the economic incentives that brought the film to Utah in the first place.


Good Joe Bell” was approved to receive up to $1.38 million from Utah’s Motion Picture Incentive Program—that’s 20% of $6.9 Million dollars that the production was projected to spend in Utah. Yes, a multimillion-dollar budget can still be considered “low,” especially when you consider that this particular shoot cost less than half of what Wahlberg was paid to be in a $210 Million “Transformers” sequel.


If the production had budgeted to hire enough extras to fill that football stadium, at the end of the shoot—following an independent audit—they could have counted it toward their rebate. In the end, filling those seats would have only cost about $179,000, or about $81/seat instead of $101.50. However, since they did not spend that money to hire local Utah background talent, they could not include it in their final tally when applying for the rebate. So, whoever thought that they were going to get a pat on the back for saving $220,000 actually wound up potentially costing the production by reducing their rebate by roughly $45,000. Productions often count on those rebates and factor them into their post-production budget. $45,000 in lost post-production resources is nothing to sneeze at. That old saying, “Penny wise and pound foolish” comes to mind.


The scarcity mindset comes with a myopic perspective of how the economics of film production works. By focusing only on the bottom-line—which often isn’t even part of the job description for middle-managers—they fail to see potential consequences to the production like those described above until after-the-fact, if at all, and are even less likely to consider its impact on the local community.


The whole point of government-funded incentives for film production is to benefit local economies. The cost of production rebates is significantly offset by the production’s spending on the use of local venues and services, and the hiring of local contractors—including background actors. Filling a high school football stadium wouldn’t have just “cost $220,000,” it would have created over 2,000 jobs, even it was just for a single day. All of those “extras” are people who have lives to live and bills to pay like anyone else. Working for one day on a film set just might cover a utility bill or a loan payment. People can’t pay their bills with a raffle prize, or a story about being in a movie with Mark Wahlberg—most likely as a blurry figure in the background for a 5-second shot. To say nothing of the fact that the use of unpaid labor is against the law. Though, I have no doubt that the “participants” were provided with appropriate and valid documentation to sign, clearly indicating their willingness to waive their rights to be compensated. Of course, just because something might be legal, doesn’t mean that it’s ethical or morally justified.


A little over a year after they wrapped production in Utah, the “low-budget” film, “Good Joe Bell,” premiered at the 2020 virtual Toronto International Film Festival where it sold for $20 million ($20,000,000).


I’m curious to know the thoughts and feelings of any locals that were convinced to work on that film without being paid, once they have been made aware that their uncompensated time and effort helped to make that sale just a little more profitable… for the producers.


The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.

Friday, September 4, 2020

Willem Kampenhout on The Art of the Camera Prep

What is the one skill you’d give to up and coming Camera Operators and Assistants?

The art of the camera prep.
Pictured: Camera Prep Artist

As a rental house manager, I hear and see this firsthand. From the last-minute emergency calls to the shows that come and leave without an error, there is a wide gap between the productions that truly utilize their time and their equipment. The fastest way to close this gap? Equipment prep.

Equipment prep is like dating before marriage. You’d hate to show up on your wedding day asking, “What’s your name?” 

So on your prep day, what are things you should go through as a part of your prep?

Here is a brief list:
  1. Fully build the camera with all of the necessary accessories for your job. 
  2. Power on the camera, check the settings and adjust to your project
  3. Make sure all accessories are functioning properly. This includes:
    • Batteries / Charger 
    • External monitors / Client Monitor
    • Lens mounts / Lenses
    • Follow focus / sync Wireless
    • Video out / sync Wireless
    • Ensure media records / downloads properly
    • Matte boxes, filters
    • Focus assists / Range finders
Next, now that your camera is built, turn to support. Camera support is all about what holds or moves the camera. Do you need:
  1. Tripod (adequate size for the payload)
  2. Handheld Rig
  3. Slider
  4. Gimbal
  5. Steadicam
Each of those above options will require a change to your camera build, so do a full run-through of the changeover OR get a 2nd camera to live on the specialty support. Sometimes a 2nd Camera is cheaper than the time spent moving the camera to and from the main tripod setup. 
You can find anything online.

So now that your dress rehearsal is complete, pack your camera up carefully. I recommend using a “camera coffin” wherein a fully or mostly built camera can be set into a case and snugly fitted to your custom camera build. Load everything into your vehicle and double-check you have everything. It doesn’t hurt to double and triple check your checkout list from the rental house so know that you indeed have everything. 

Now you are set and ready to go! On the first day of production, Camera will be the first team ready to go and all other teams (lighting, set dressing, cast) will be faster in their setup as they can now see exactly what the first shot will be. 

So, Producers, budget for an equipment prep. It will save you money. Even on a super tight budget, camera crews may take a 1/2 day prep rate and that money spent will greatly outweigh the costs of a 30-minute camera delay. Do the math. It’s worth it!

Willem Kampenhout
is part of the team at Mystery Box LLC in Pleasant Grove.







The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.

Monday, August 17, 2020

A Message from Carolyn Leone and the MPAU

Hello Fellow Film Industry Professionals:

MPAU Board Members
Carolyn Leone, Michelle Moore,
and Ashley Cook.
My name is Carolyn Leone. I am the current President of the Motion Picture Association of Utah, (the MPAU). When not volunteering my time to the MPAU, I am a Costume Designer for Film and Television.

As you may or may not know, the main function of the MPAU is to provide a unified educating and lobbying force in the state of Utah, to support and grow our Motion Picture Incentive Program.


Due to a lack of adequate funding to this program, the state of Utah recently lost the television show YELLOWSTONE to our neighbor state Montana. The loss of jobs and tax revenue for Utah is indeed sad news.


The MPAU is currently working hard to build new and ongoing relationships with legislators as we head into a gubernatorial election year. Our top priority is to have our message heard by the new incoming administration. 


With the new school year starting, I am reminded of all the wonderful film programs we have in our state including those at the University of Utah, Brigham Young University, Utah Valley University, Salt Lake Community College, and SpyHop. Film and Digital Media programs turn out students who are eager to work in the film industry. The MPAU wants to make sure that these young bright minds are not forced to leave the state of Utah to start their careers. We want to keep our talent, money, and infrastructure in Utah.  I commend these institutions not only for the high-quality education they bring but also for their forbearance in keeping the wheels of education turning during this challenging time.


I could not be more proud of our film community in Utah. The willingness to pull together, and do what is necessary to make Utah a destination of choice for local filmmakers and filmmakers from around the country, and around the world, is nothing short of incredible. 


If you are not already a member of the MPAU, please do consider joining us. Not only do your membership dollars help with our educating and lobbying efforts, but you also help build our membership numbers, which builds our power and influence in growing our Motion Picture Incentive Program. Ultimately bringing more opportunities to everyone in our industry.


Join us today at mpau.org


The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.

Wednesday, August 5, 2020

A Message from the Utah Film Commission:

Utah Film Commission
Last week, there were two stories in the news about how
film production In Utah has begun to crawl back and that more commercials are filming in Utah. We can all agree that none of us could have imagined the world we are living in now, but the Utah film industry has always been good at adapting to changing conditions. With our skilled crew members, professional vendors and diverse landscapes, Utah has the workforce and resources for any type of production.


When Utah began to reopen in May, the Utah Film Commission had already received 140% more production inquiries compared to the previous year and projects that postponed or delayed are starting to resume production in accordance with state and local safety guidelines. You can find a list of many of those projects that are starting to film in Utah in the Current Productions section of our website.


With the unique circumstances of the pandemic, hiring crews and vendors #InUtah and choosing to #FilmInUtah is the best way to keep our industry thriving and we need your help. We want all crew members and vendors based in Utah to update or register in the Utah Film Directory to show off your experience. Anytime the Utah Film Commission receives a production inquiry, we encourage those in-state and out-of-state productions to search the directory for talented Utahns and businesses in our film industry. Now, more than ever, it’s important for the industry to know the many Utah crew members and vendors that are ready to work.


We know that this has been a difficult time for the Utah film industry, but we are all in this together.


Our office wants to hear from you what more we can do to help! Email us at film@utah.gov or message us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn.

The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.

Monday, July 13, 2020

Justus Page on the Director/DP relationship

Justus Page
My DP career began 6 years ago. What was my understanding of the Director/DP relationship back then? I was there to do what I was told. And yet inside I was angry because a part of me felt like that wasn’t right. I should have a say. But I felt too self-conscious in my abilities to be able to speak up. We existed with different expectations of each other.

This can be a very common experience for young DP’s and directors who are finding their footing. You might’ve been lucky to find someone you clicked with right at the beginning, but most are not so lucky. What is supposed to happen is an evolution of your working process. But let’s be honest; Is that what’s happening for YOU?

I think many people running in the independent/no budget circuit innocently never learned about this evolution. Nobody told them. Certainly, nobody told me. It was years of trial and error. But I found that in those roles, that evolution is a big part of your upward mobility in the industry.

Directors: Who is your cinematographer to you? Is it someone you hired to make your film look pretty? Naively, but understandably, this is often where our headspace can be, right? What’s your expectation of them? Are they there to hear your ideas and nod? Are they there to do what you tell them to? Do you want them to just show up and take command of the visuals entirely?

Image courtesy of the author
DP’s: What are you looking for in a director? Are you looking for someone to hand-hold you? Or someone completely hands-off who leaves you alone to do what you know best? You are the professional after all. A director who vomits meaning into every angle? Or a director who couldn’t care less, as long as it looks fine.

Let’s diverge from all of these entirely, and consider another possibility. Your DP/Director is your co-collaborator​. Some seasoned DP’s and Directors might scoff when they read this part because many of them understand this is how it’s supposed to be, ​duh​. But it’s not a given.

The first time I mustered up the courage and gave honest feedback on a script I was offered and the Director went “Oh, that’s a great insight! Let’s make that change,” my whole career evolved. I realized that I could insist on reading a script first, insist on giving feedback, and have an open dialogue with my prospective director. I realized I didn’t want to work with Directors who wouldn’t give me that consideration. But also, those that did showed me their ego was left at the door. They cared most about telling the best story, whatever form that took. It no longer mattered to me whether my director wanted to plan all the shots themselves, or whether they left all of that to me; My expertise was respected, my opinion was welcomed, and that created the type of working environment most conducive to doing our best work.

Image courtesy of the author
Shooting a pivotal moment in the film, the director could say, “Let’s do the shot like this,” and I could feel comfortable saying, “Actually, based on the discussions we’ve had about what we’re trying to say about this character, I think we might be better served doing this.” And guess what? The director can say “I disagree. Let’s do it my way,” and I am absolutely fine with that. That given respect is mutual. Oftentimes, conversations like the one above are avoided on the day, because I do extensive prep and planning with my directors involving look books, breakdowns, discussing character motivations, doing boards, writing shot lists, and religiously reading the script. This gets us all on the same page long before we walk on set.

Who are we as DP’s? We are the guardians of our Director’s vision. We are meant to champion their creative integrity and protect them however we can. We do this by doing everything in our power to understand them, ask 8 million questions until we’re sure we know what the expectations are and what they’re trying to achieve. We stand up for them if someone calls into question that integrity. We go the extra mile to be involved wherever we can, just to gain even an extra ounce of understanding of the vision.

As a Director, doesn’t having someone who champions these things sound exciting? Does it not sound like a weight off your shoulders? Can you sleep better knowing your vision won’t be compromised? Doesn’t it ease your tensions to know you can confide in your DP and ask them for their help? This is the world we’re all trying to live in. And it’s possible. But it takes vulnerability to open yourself up to this dynamic. You as a Director have to be open to ideas and to accept that help. You have to be open to being wrong, but also be comfortable being right, and knowing that standing your ground won’t ruffle any feathers because you’ve fostered this relationship. As DP’s we have to be open to considering ourselves as storytellers in our own right and respect ourselves enough to accept that our jobs are so closely tied to telling a story. Even if, at the end of the day, the Director gets the final word, we can allow ourselves to express our ideas to them openly, and ego-free.

In this day and age, it isn’t too hard to find someone who will make your film look good. But what about someone who makes your story better? Someone who’s invested in its success? Someone who wants to throw the full weight of their craft behind enhancing what’s on the page, and finding ways to make it even better than it was?

The key to being better storytellers for us all is collaboration. Don’t take my word for it. Go discover it for yourself! You’ll never go back to the way things were. And that, I can promise.

Feel free to reach out and open a dialogue! I’m always happy to chat!


 
The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.

Monday, July 6, 2020

Adriele Fugal on how to Work Safely on Film Sets During the Pandemic


Adriele Fugal, MSPH(c)
Public Health Safety Specialist
The COVID-19 pandemic has forced states in the U.S. and countries around the world to shut down for months as the virus has spread globally like wildfire with no regard to national borders, social bounds, political systems, or cultural values. Major industries were advised to have their employees work from home as a mitigation effort to slow the spread of the virus in order to avoid overwhelming hospital beds and avoid unnecessary deaths, especially among our most vulnerable population: older adults.

While some industries were able to have their employees work remotely, other businesses were hit hard by the shutdown, including the film industry. It is estimated that 120,000 people have lost their jobs in Hollywood due to COVID-19, while 50,000 people will be losing their jobs in the United Kingdom. The film industry has also suffered a $4 billion hit at the box office and is expected to lose even more money from stopped productions. To top it off, most insurance companies exclude any coverage of infectious diseases, including COVID-19, painting a scary picture for the future of film and television production.

Adriele...
keeping her set safe!
So, is it safe to work in film sets during a pandemic? It can be! And I will show what you can do to make film sets safe for the cast and crew while helping the film industry get back to doing what it does best. When I started working as a Public Health Safety Supervisor I did a lot of research to understand what the best measures would be to follow to minimize the spread of COVID-19 on film sets. I spent a good amount of time reading everything I could find from many well known and reputable organizations, such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), World Health Organization (WHO), and Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). I also spent many days getting certificates related to COVID-19 from top-notch universities, the CDC and WHO, so I could feel prepared and capable of providing the most recent, up to date guidelines to my clients, and the best services to the people I was trusted to keep safe. And that is how I was able to be the first person in the state, or perhaps even in the nation, to develop COVID-19 guidelines for film sets, which I shared with the Utah Filmmakers™ Facebook group, and has since been replaced by the Utah Film Commission guidelines

So now, after working on over a dozen productions during the pandemic, here is my take on how film productions can work safely on film sets today:

  1. Hire a Public Health Specialist that has abundant knowledge of epidemiology, infection disease and control, and disease outbreaks, like myself, to advise your production during the pre-production phase, and make sure that all safety guidelines are being followed during the production.
  2. Have a Public Health Specialist create, manage and implement a Covid compliance program, especially for longer productions or productions with a large number of cast and crew.
  3. Make sure that the person you hire is up to date on COVID-19 information. As more research is done, more information becomes available. Guidelines might change as we learn more about the disease. As an example, masks were not recommended to the public a few months ago, but we learned that they are actually very effective in preventing the virus from spreading.
  4. Hiring a medic to do the job on set is fine, but being certified to work as a medic doesn’t automatically qualify them to know the best procedures and guidelines for sets. Whoever you hire should have the proper knowledge and training in COVID-19 specific procedures for film sets.
  5. Because COVID-19 related claims aren’t covered by production insurance, it would be advisable for producers and companies to have cast and crew sign a mandatory liability release waiver. The production should state in this document that they are doing everything in their power to prevent the spread of infection on set, and all involved should be required to follow safety guidelines put in place. Setting this expectation in advance will give the cast and crew peace of mind.

While I, as a public health professional, cannot warrant 100 percent that no one on set will ever get sick, I can assure you that by following guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, our state, and those widely accepted by the film industry we can effectively minimize the spread of COVID-19 on sets, while giving everyone the feeling of safety and care.


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The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.

Tuesday, June 30, 2020

Lindsey Watson on going back to work


Things to consider when going back to work.


Liability waivers.
I can’t believe I even have to write this, but there is no more important precedent to set with the industry than our refusal to sign away our lives (literally) for the privilege of having work.


The “standard” 60-hr workweek has to go.
More hours does not equal more output. And more importantly, the harder we work, the more compromised our immune systems become, and the more likely we are to not only contract but also spread Covid-19.

Kit fees should be standard for everyone asked to work from home.
If you provide equipment that the production or a facility would have provided before, you should be compensated accordingly. This isn’t just about your main workstation, this includes your laptop, your phone to manage calls (and endless text messages) all day long, and also includes stipends to cover faster internet, electricity, printer toner, etc.

Additional Reading:






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The opinions expressed in this blog are those of the authors and—especially where guest posts are concerned—do not necessarily reflect the opinions or views of the Utah Filmmakers™ Association, its officers and/or associates.

Utah Filmmaker(s)™ and UFA™ are trademarks registered with the Utah Department of Commerce Division of Corporations and Commercial Code, Registration Numbers 10706542-0190 , 11025542-0190 and 10502093-0190 respectively.